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Shiloch Veneficus
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 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:52 pm Post subject: Matrix Revolutions Spoiler |
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WARNING: ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!
If you can't wait to see what happens, I found a spoiler (basically a walk-through) of the movie. I can't urge strongly enough if you feel a spoiler will ruin your experience of the movie, for your own sake, DO NOT CLICK.
The Matrix: Revolutions Spoiler
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Jorlana
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:47 am Post subject: |
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MUST resist urge.... It is SOOOO hard not to click that link.
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Shiloch Veneficus
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Well, for me, I was dying to know the storyline, and it won't ruin my enjoyment of the movie even by a small percent.
As a matter of fact, if I had been primed for Reloaded, I would have enjoyed it a lot more. When I went to the theater to see it on opening day, I was being thrown in multiple directions by that movie, it was most difficult to keep up with.
I enjoyed much more after the second time I saw it, and then when I bought the DVD I liked it more and more each time I watched it thereafter. I can only imagine that Revolutions will be much the same, and now that I have a baseline understanding of the story, I'll be able to enjoy it a lot more when I see it for the first time. 
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Aelorean
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Matrix concept is quite good, in my opinion. It'd be nice if HBO took the franchise and made a QUALITY (notice, I used the word quality and HBO here) television series out of it. I can imagine a series based upon short stories from the Matrix universe ...different actors/locations each week ...with perhaps some returning names/characters occassionally. |
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Shiloch Veneficus
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Amazingly, the movie didn't go along exactly with that spoiler, and didn't end the same at all. Still great!
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Vyria
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, just got back from the movie.
This is kind of like a game of telephone. The info in this seems to have filtered through so many sources that some things are mildly inaccurate.
The ending is completely wrong and the actual ending is much more fitting.
Revolutions was leaps and bounds better than Reloaded. Still doesn't have the same kind of impact as The Matrix did, but it's a decent finale. |
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Mildane
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I heard the plot isnt too great in revolutions.... Obviously the reviewer that wrote that hadnt seen the first two.
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Shiloch Veneficus
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:26 am Post subject: |
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The main reason I think Revolutions > Reloaded is because Reloaded executed convolution... for the sake of convolution. They wrapped it up very nicely in the third movie and it is MUCH easier to understand for the average theater-goer. I was very surprised that we saw so much of Zion being destroyed. You know the attack is imminent after watching Reloaded, but I was of the opinion that in Revolutions, that'd be more of zomething we'd hear about, instead of actually seeing it. Very nice job with the effects, I was much more appreciative of it this time.
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Aelorean
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:35 am Post subject: |
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I always thought that Zion and the machine city and everything we saw as "real" was still part of the Matrix. An aspect of the Matrix to deal with the humans who were stronger than the average humans and would need a more 'epic' struggle of life/death in order to remain in the system (remember in the first movie when they described that the original Matrix was a perfect eden, but humans rejected it?)
That's what I think anyway. Which explains a lot of Neo's powers in this movie, and Smith's ability to move around in what the characters considered the 'real' world. And, since Smith was never anything more than a program, why Neo was able to explain to the machines that Smith would eventually figure out how to take over the 'real' machine city too before long (ie, the Zion/Machine City part of the Matrix).
Perhaps someday we'll read a book or see a movie and find out that all of the humans are being controlled by machines in 'pods' on the *real* Earth..but that it's really a beautiful paradise...where no one can wake up.
Of course, on the flip side, we could just all be programs in the matrix....just...programs. All of us  |
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Vyria
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Aelorean wrote: | | I always thought that Zion and the machine city and everything we saw as "real" was still part of the Matrix. An aspect of the Matrix to deal with the humans who were stronger than the average humans and would need a more 'epic' struggle of life/death in order to remain in the system (remember in the first movie when they described that the original Matrix was a perfect eden, but humans rejected it?) |
After Reloaded came out I spent a lot of time debating with people about how that was an extremely unlikely scenario. The biggest reason being I don't think the Wachowski brothers would insult the audience like that.
Second being, with Zion being such a small portion of the overall population, why bother fooling with those who reject the "regular" Matrix? It would be much more practical just to kill them than to breed unneeded dissidence within the system. As the archetect explained, Zion is critical to the system, otherwise it wouldn't exist in any form.
Smith's abillity to move around in the real world was that he uploaded his personality into Bain. Brains are essentially big, squishy processors, it wouldn't be hard for an electrical entity to take over. Neo's powers can be explained by his connection to the machines. He contains part of the source and is therefore linked to the machines, he's part of their network, and through his sheer will can control them to an extent. |
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Aelorean
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest reason being I don't think the Wachowski brothers would insult the audience like that.
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Actually, the more likely scenario is that the Wachowski brothers really don't know themselves whether Zion was actually 'real' or not. That sounds rather unbelievable, but it is not uncommon for authors to intentionally "not know" the facts about a given situation in order to give the audience a stronger sense of mystery.
I suppose they could make a decision...but, I don't think they want to make that decision. |
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Shiloch Veneficus
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Where you got the idea that Zion wasn't real, I don't know. They never made a clear attempt at the possibility that it isn't.
At the end of Reloaded, when Neo took down the sentinels with his will, I thought that there was a chance that at the end of Revolutions, Neo would wake up at his desk to his computer screen saying, "Knock knock, Neo" just like it did at the beginning of the original - the idea being that no one had ever really left the matrix. Of course, ending the movie that way would only be cool in certain circles, and in the interest of box office dollars, it would need to be better.
Other than that, I'm not getting where you caught the idea that Zion was fake. They actually did a good job with Smith/Bane's dialogue in showing that they were in the real world.
Get a clue!
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Aelorean
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Where you got the idea that Zion wasn't real, I don't know. They never made a clear attempt at the possibility that it isn't.
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There was something in reloaded that fired this possibility in my mind, but I'd have to watch it again to remember what the quote was.
However, the possibility, even if it wasn't mentioned, makes sense to me due to a number of factors. First, even though I mentioned this previously, I can't stress the importance of the fact that Smith in the first movie indicated to Neo that the original Matrix was a paradise, which was 'rejected' by Humans because it did not give humans purpose. Therefore, they created the Matrix at this point in order to give humans more 'purpose' -- but STILL there are those humans that still reject the system. Therefore, a "Zion" aspect of the matrix was necessary for those humans. Secondly, Morpheus consistantly told Neo and others that the war had only been going on for (I forget the exact number) a few hundred years -- yet, we discovered from the Architect that it was indeed MUCH longer than that. Thirdly, Zion contained much more in the way of technology and ability than any renegade civilization should have...I mean, where did they get everything they had?! An endless supply of ammunition, power, ships, ...in just a couple hundred years? Or, if it had been thousands, why would no one remember anything further back than a few hundred years? AND, chances are that the Architect was not lying since the W. brothers went out of the way to indicate in the movies that the machines do not lie.
No...the notion of Zion and the machine city..and this convenient war to give "real" humans purpose is too convenient. You saw the number of machines that invaded Zion ....and they litterally OWN the earth...there is no way that a puny group of humans could have withstood that for such a long time .....it was scripted, a part of the matrix ....when the "One" comes forth to balance the equation, then the invasion script begins.
I think what we saw in the movie was a massive glitch in the system (The Matrix System) ...the first in thousands of years. And, I think the oracle found it amusing..and followed it through to see how it would turn out.
Seriously, if there was such a problem with the matrix and that Zion and hte machine city were real and there were THIS big of a problem. Then, the machines could have simply rebooted the system. No, they were worried that the Smith part might invade the "Zion/Machine City" part of the matrix and that would provide a complete washout for the "real" machines in the "real" world since EVERY human would probably die in their pods.
Of course, it's all a very silly thing to be writing about since it's a movie anyway...but, I like the notion of being able to interpret things in many ways. THAT was the genius behind the W. Brothers' story ..they intentionally left it vague. |
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Vyria
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Aelorean wrote: | | Quote: |
Where you got the idea that Zion wasn't real, I don't know. They never made a clear attempt at the possibility that it isn't.
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There was something in reloaded that fired this possibility in my mind, but I'd have to watch it again to remember what the quote was.
However, the possibility, even if it wasn't mentioned, makes sense to me due to a number of factors. First, even though I mentioned this previously, I can't stress the importance of the fact that Smith in the first movie indicated to Neo that the original Matrix was a paradise, which was 'rejected' by Humans because it did not give humans purpose. Therefore, they created the Matrix at this point in order to give humans more 'purpose' -- but STILL there are those humans that still reject the system. Therefore, a "Zion" aspect of the matrix was necessary for those humans. Secondly, Morpheus consistantly told Neo and others that the war had only been going on for (I forget the exact number) a few hundred years -- yet, we discovered from the Architect that it was indeed MUCH longer than that. Thirdly, Zion contained much more in the way of technology and ability than any renegade civilization should have...I mean, where did they get everything they had?! An endless supply of ammunition, power, ships, ...in just a couple hundred years? Or, if it had been thousands, why would no one remember anything further back than a few hundred years? AND, chances are that the Architect was not lying since the W. brothers went out of the way to indicate in the movies that the machines do not lie.
No...the notion of Zion and the machine city..and this convenient war to give "real" humans purpose is too convenient. You saw the number of machines that invaded Zion ....and they litterally OWN the earth...there is no way that a puny group of humans could have withstood that for such a long time .....it was scripted, a part of the matrix ....when the "One" comes forth to balance the equation, then the invasion script begins.
I think what we saw in the movie was a massive glitch in the system (The Matrix System) ...the first in thousands of years. And, I think the oracle found it amusing..and followed it through to see how it would turn out.
Seriously, if there was such a problem with the matrix and that Zion and hte machine city were real and there were THIS big of a problem. Then, the machines could have simply rebooted the system. No, they were worried that the Smith part might invade the "Zion/Machine City" part of the matrix and that would provide a complete washout for the "real" machines in the "real" world since EVERY human would probably die in their pods.
Of course, it's all a very silly thing to be writing about since it's a movie anyway...but, I like the notion of being able to interpret things in many ways. THAT was the genius behind the W. Brothers' story ..they intentionally left it vague. |
First off, during and interview someone asked Keanu Reeves if the characters really were outside of the matrix or not and he explicitly said that they aren't doing "boxes in boxes."
Next, it's quite clear that Zion is a construct of the machines, but one in the real world. The architech explained all of this. The first people to find Zion think it's ruins of older humans so they build upon it. Remember, the people coming out of the matrix are technologically advanced already so given advanced resources, it's not too hard to concieve they can create that city and mechs and such within a 100 year period. The sentinels and the Agents aren't let in on this so they still go about their job of wiping out all human resistance.
A reboot without the revised source code from Neo would have killed humanity, they couldn't do that. If they could do that, why couldn't they reboot the "Zion/Machine City" matrix. What happens when people who reject the Zion Matrix? The explaination is entirely too convoluted to be plausible.
Not only that, the ending to the Matrix was not vague, it was a pretty clear one.
I still say the W Brothers wouldn't insult their fans like that. It's fine if in a meaningless horror movie to inexplicably show the monster coming back to life at the end. It completely invalidates all the actions of the people in the film, but the movie had no meaning other to shock you so it's not insulting the audience.
If you were to suddenly find out at the end or even after the fact, that all the plot of the movie, everything the characters went through, and all the symbolism that was crafted was invalid, I would be pissed off. It's the equivalent of someone spending over seven hours of your life just to do a "haha made you look!" joke.
PS I like to talk = ) |
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Aelorean
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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What happens when people who reject the Zion Matrix? The explaination is entirely too convoluted to be plausible.
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They would truly die...as they would serve no purpose to the machines. However, it's a very logical solution to have a contingency plan for humans that do not accept the 'regular' matrix.
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I still say the W Brothers wouldn't insult their fans like that. It's fine if in a meaningless horror movie to inexplicably show the monster coming back to life at the end. It completely invalidates all the actions of the people in the film, but the movie had no meaning other to shock you so it's not insulting the audience.
If you were to suddenly find out at the end or even after the fact, that all the plot of the movie, everything the characters went through, and all the symbolism that was crafted was invalid, I would be pissed off. It's the equivalent of someone spending over seven hours of your life just to do a "haha made you look!" joke.
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I completely disagree with this part (although, what you said earlier in the posting could be true.) There is a LOT of symbolism to everything and the meaning is sooooo much deeper if everything was a construct of a Matrix (ie, boxes within boxes, as you say). It is saying that humans are not the only ones capable of love and that we're no different than programs ..that we're all programs ...and that we all make decisions. Fate, love, hate, everything is but a construct of the imagination of an individual ...heck, you could even say that God is the programmer of one massive Matrix ...balancing the equation and performing experiments just to see which works better....trials and tribulations of the human experience just to see if we're capable of it.
No ....the movie as you describe it is much more boring than the movie that I described earlier (which may very well be wrong). If Zion were real, then this is all just a story about good vs. evil when you distill it down. My version was more of a Jack Chalker version
hehe ....wtb a 100 million dollar production of a Jack Chalker original script! THEN, we could sit and REALLY debate ..lol. If what you say is true, it makes the movie much more simple ..and is kindof depressing to me.... |
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