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Vyria
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Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 27
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 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Aelorean wrote: |
I completely disagree with this part (although, what you said earlier in the posting could be true.) There is a LOT of symbolism to everything and the meaning is sooooo much deeper if everything was a construct of a Matrix (ie, boxes within boxes, as you say). It is saying that humans are not the only ones capable of love and that we're no different than programs ..that we're all programs ...and that we all make decisions. Fate, love, hate, everything is but a construct of the imagination of an individual ...heck, you could even say that God is the programmer of one massive Matrix ...balancing the equation and performing experiments just to see which works better....trials and tribulations of the human experience just to see if we're capable of it.
No ....the movie as you describe it is much more boring than the movie that I described earlier (which may very well be wrong). If Zion were real, then this is all just a story about good vs. evil when you distill it down. My version was more of a Jack Chalker version 
hehe ....wtb a 100 million dollar production of a Jack Chalker original script! THEN, we could sit and REALLY debate ..lol. If what you say is true, it makes the movie much more simple ..and is kindof depressing to me.... |
Assuming the real world is actually real, that doesn't change any of the things you mentioned.
Even in all the animatrix shorts, the programs and machines aren't simply unfeeling constructs. The machines think, feel, and love in the same way the humans do, just like the man at the beginning explained about his daughter. Both also have choice. Just because the real world is real doesn't change this in any way.
In the Animatrix, we see the very beginning of the war. The humans don't give robots a choice, either they become slaves or face destruction. The robots reject both choices and fight back. When they win they give humanity a choice, either go in to stasis or be wiped out. Humans choose survival.
When they try the first Matrix, the world is "perfect." Presumably because humans had no choices to make. To a machine, the perfect world would be a static one, devoid of problems or any need for choice.
The imperfect Matrix is constructed, its entire foundation lies in choice, not only the fact that people are allowed to choose like the real world, but that the continued being of the world rests on the choice of "The One" for that instance of the matrix.
The reason there is still dissidence is that humans still don't have the choice of how they really live. They aren't given the choice to choose their lives freely. The One is the only human who seems to have total and complete freedom of choice until the final decision given to him by the architecht. If he couldn't truly choose to be in the real world, he couldn't be the One.
When Neo comes around to being the One, he, much like the machines before, rejects both possibilities. He chooses to liberate humanity instead.
The machines as a whole aren't ever evil, they're just living for themselves in the same way humans did. The story isn't about the triumph of good over evil. It's the triumph of choice and freedom over oppression. In the end the bad guys aren't the defeated foes, they've finally gained equality with humanity. Both groups get to choose their own lives. |
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Mildane
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Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Plane of Hate
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It's the equivalent of someone spending over seven hours of your life just to do a "haha made you look!" joke.
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Am I the only one that would find this funny? 
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Shiloch Veneficus
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Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 1946
Location: All My Base Are Belong to You
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:13 am Post subject: |
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As to your first point, Smith never used the word 'purpose' in any of his dialogue in the first movie. The matrix wasn't recreated to give the humans more purpose, it was recreated so they would accept the program - and making it more realistic was their only hope of doing that.
| Aelorean wrote: | | but STILL there are those humans that still reject the system. Therefore, a "Zion" aspect of the matrix was necessary for those humans. |
Pure conjecture on your part. No where in the movie does it say that Zion was created by the machines, no where does it say that Zion is an aspect of the matrix at any point. The architect says, "Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster." That says NOTHING about the machines' control over the humans who DID refuse the program.
Secondly, about the Architect, you have no evidence (nor is any present in the movie) that he is telling the complete truth. To accept his speech, especially about the six versions of the matrix, as gospel would be the same as accepting the prophecy as gospel, where your assumption is fundamentally flawed.
| Aelorean wrote: | | No...the notion of Zion and the machine city..and this convenient war to give "real" humans purpose is too convenient. You saw the number of machines that invaded Zion ....and they litterally OWN the earth...there is no way that a puny group of humans could have withstood that for such a long time .....it was scripted, a part of the matrix ....when the "One" comes forth to balance the equation, then the invasion script begins. |
Also pure conjecture on your part. It is never explained why the machines waited so long to conquer Zion, and since you are not a machine, you can't propose to think like one. At any rate, this point is irrelevant, as the movie is drama and if the machines acted in a way that was 'smart,' we couldn't have the movie.
| Aelorean wrote: | | Seriously, if there was such a problem with the matrix and that Zion and hte machine city were real and there were THIS big of a problem. Then, the machines could have simply rebooted the system. No, they were worried that the Smith part might invade the "Zion/Machine City" part of the matrix and that would provide a complete washout for the "real" machines in the "real" world since EVERY human would probably die in their pods. |
Conjecture on your part again. You don't know exactly how the matrix system works. It is quite possilbe that by 'rebooting' the system, they'd lose every node connected to it (the podded humans), which is every bit as devastating to the machines as the program "Smith" taking them over. Conjecture on my part, but relevant enough to counter yours.
| Aelorean wrote: | | they intentionally left it vague. |
So stop making up details!
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Rufuss
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Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
Location: Oklahoma
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BonlainyT
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Aelorean
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Joined: 13 Jul 2002
Posts: 952
Location: Des Moines, IA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I use a lot of conjecture in my reasoning behind my personal interpretation of the movie. However, that is the nature of interpretation and if the W. Brothers wanted it to be more clear, they would have made it more clear. But, either they left a lot of loose ends on purpose to MAKE us have these discussions and to interpret it ourselves, or else they left loose ends that they should not have ...because they ARE there.
It is one of the best parts about literature/music/etc... the individual interpretation. Hell, Leonard Bernstein used to argue that not even the composer of a piece of music really knew the proper interpretation of it ...therefore, it was acceptable to change anything if it made sense to you on a personal and intimate level. And, I think that applies to movies as well, which is why I prefer to think of the Matrix in my own way 
That all aside, there is one man that I rarely, if ever, disagree with..and that's Roger Ebert. So, I looked up his review, and again I really enjoyed his thoughts. (http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/cst-ftr-matrix05.html). I enjoyed his postscript especially:
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Note: "The Matrix Reloaded" was notable for the number of key characters who are black; this time, what we notice is how many strong women there are. Two women operate a bazooka team, Niobe flies the ship, the women have muscles, they kick ass, and this isn't your grandmother's Second Sex anymore.
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